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The Deepdive
The Truth About Story Points: Agile's Potential Pitfall
Are story points draining your team's mental energy? In this eye-opening episode, we break down the controversial practice of story points with our expert guest, shedding light on whether this Agile staple is truly beneficial or just a distraction. We'll explore real-world examples, like the mind-boggling estimate of days to write a single paragraph, and dive into the psychological effects story points can have on your team, including the notorious Zeigarnik effect. This isn't just about bashing an Agile practice; we'll also hear arguments in favor of story points and discuss if there's a smarter way to manage work scope and foster better team collaboration without the hassle.
Join us for an engaging discussion that goes beyond the textbook definition of story points. You'll hear about the unintended consequences of turning story points into a game to hit arbitrary velocity targets and the vanity metrics that can lead teams astray. Are we losing sight of common sense and focusing too much on making burndown charts look good? By the end of this episode, you'll have a clearer understanding of the good, the bad, and the ugly sides of story points, and you'll be equipped to consider more effective alternatives for your Agile team.
Ever feel like some parts of Agile are, I don't know, maybe more trouble than they're worth. We're diving into something today that's got even seasoned developers kind of scratching their heads.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, story points Right.
Speaker 1:Those little numbers you know meant to represent effort during sprints. Yeah, with all this talk lately about Agile is dead kind of makes you wonder are story points actually helping or are they just another thing we have to track? Yeah, yes, you know you sent over this really interesting mix of blog posts for this deep dive even a pretty heated stack overflow debate. So, clearly you are not alone in wondering about this and, honestly, I've been there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which is why I'm excited to unpack this whole thing, get your expert insight and see if, maybe just maybe there's a better way to approach this whole estimation game.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:Now for anyone totally new to Agile super quick rundown Story points are meant to like size up tasks right, yeah, yeah. But not by hours.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:By the effort, the complexity involved. Think of it as this relative scale Okay, Often uses that Fibonacci sequence, right, right, but we're going way beyond the textbook definition today. Ok, we are digging into the nitty gritty, the good, the bad and the let's be honest the downright ugly side of story points. Yeah, yeah, and trust me, some of these sources yeah, yeah. And, according to one source, that's exactly what story point estimation can feel like.
Speaker 2:OK.
Speaker 1:We're putting all this mental energy into something that doesn't actually change the end product.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:It's like what are we even doing here?
Speaker 2:And here's where it gets really interesting. This ties into this psychological phenomenon called the Zeigarnik effect.
Speaker 1:OK.
Speaker 2:We actually remember unfinished or interrupted tasks way more vividly than completed ones.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:So we might agonize over story points for a whole sprint.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But then once it's over gone, Just like that. Just like that, bro. Wasted mental energy, wow. And then it gets worse because we're asked to compare current sprint estimations to those fuzzy, half-forgotten ones. Oh no, it's no wonder they're asked to compare current sprint estimations to those fuzzy half-forgotten ones. Oh no, it's no wonder they're often way off.
Speaker 1:Right, we're setting ourselves up for inaccurate estimations from the get-go, and what's even crazier is how easily story points can turn into this weird game. You know, instead of focusing on building a great product, it becomes all about hitting a certain velocity, you know. Yeah that magical number of story points per sprint.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:We've got sources talking about teams like breaking down tasks into these ridiculously tiny pieces just to make their progress look better on those. What are they called the burndown charts? Yeah, you know, those charts that are supposed to show how quickly work is getting done.
Speaker 2:It's the classic trap of vanity metrics we become obsessed with measuring something, anything Right, even if it has zero to do with the actual value being delivered.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's like we're more concerned with looking busy than actually being effective.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:And the examples. Oh my gosh, the examples these sources share. It's kind of hilarious, you know, but also like head shaking kind of way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like what are we doing?
Speaker 1:Like one developer was assigned to get this right. One paragraph, oh my God, summarizing a previous task. One paragraph Guess how long his colleagues estimated that would take.
Speaker 2:How long?
Speaker 1:Days. No way Days for a single paragraph? How long Days? No way Days for a single paragraph? It begs the question have we completely lost sight of common sense in the name of agile?
Speaker 2:See, this actually brings up a really important point from those who defend story points.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Their argument is that it's about having the right conversations as a team.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Understanding the scope of the work identifying financial risks. You know, fostering collaboration.
Speaker 1:Right, and those are all good things.
Speaker 2:They are good things, but it makes you wonder, you know, is there a more effective way to achieve all that without getting bogged down in these story point debates?
Speaker 1:Right, like maybe those conversations are valuable, but the story points themselves are the problem.
Speaker 2:That's something we definitely need to explore further. But first let's zoom out a bit. We've been talking about story points, you know, in isolation, right, but they kind of exist within this bigger ecosystem.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Of agile methodologies, right yeah, and sometimes those methodologies even with, like, the best of intentions.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Can lead to what one source called get this agile recipes. Recipes, okay, yeah, you know those rigid, step-by-step frameworks that are just magically supposed to make your team more efficient.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:But here's the catch right those recipes.
Speaker 1:They can actually sometimes create more problems than they solve.
Speaker 2:Interesting yeah.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about those agile recipes a bit more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know those frameworks, the methodologies, those well-intentioned sets of rules, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Designed to, like you know, make everyone super efficient. The problem is, they can make teams start focusing on just checking off boxes. Oh, interesting. Instead of delivering. You know real value.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I see.
Speaker 1:Remember how we talked about vanity metrics earlier? Yes, well, one source talks about task bloating within these recipes.
Speaker 2:Task bloating Okay.
Speaker 1:The pressure to make sprints look successful to hit those velocity targets, it can lead to well inflating tasks. A simple job that should take an afternoon right.
Speaker 2:Get stretched out over days, right Weeks, even.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And, and that's before you factor in all the time spent on, like the meetings, the documentation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I come with these recipes, all these, all the overhead, yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all the overhead, I like that. It's fascinating, though, how this rigid structure yeah. Even if it's like, based on these agile principles.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Can lead to this whole task bloating thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like everyone's so focused on making sure that you know everything fits into these predefined boxes that they forget to actually just step back and ask wait, is this actually the best way to even be doing this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, are we even accomplishing anything?
Speaker 1:here Right, right, exactly.
Speaker 2:The focus shifts from you know, actually delivering value to just like looking good on paper.
Speaker 1:Looking good on a spreadsheet? Yeah, exactly Right. And then there's the meta work overload.
Speaker 2:Meta work. What's that?
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. It's like some teams they spend more time talking about the work than actually doing the work.
Speaker 2:OK.
Speaker 1:We're looking at sources that just lament this endless cycle of stand-up meetings, sprint planning sessions, demos, retrospectives.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's enough to make you want to pull your hair out, right, right, especially when the outcome of all that talking isn't a better product, it's just more documentation and a sense of like, oh yeah, we're busy, look at us, we're busy and maybe we should just be, you know, getting things done.
Speaker 2:The psychological impact of this, you know, is fascinating actually. Ok, Because we as humans, you know, we crave certainty.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And these recipes with all their metrics and their charts and their timelines and everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:They give us this sense of control. Right, right, ok, like we know what's coming next.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The danger is, of course, that you know we become so fixated on just following the recipe.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:That we forget about the goal, which is actually building something valuable.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:For actual users yeah.
Speaker 1:And that can be incredibly demotivating for teams.
Speaker 2:Oh sure.
Speaker 1:Especially when they like know that the product that they're building isn't actually like solving a problem.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Or that the process itself is hindering them.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:One of our sources talked about their experience at like this big tech company.
Speaker 2:OK.
Speaker 1:Where they were basically told don't talk to users, users Just build the product that we think is best. That's, I mean, that's a recipe for disaster. Right there it is.
Speaker 2:It all comes back to this idea of psychological safety.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:When teams are, you know, when they're able to actually challenge assumptions, to, like you know, express dissenting opinions without fear of retribution. Yeah, that's when you have true innovation.
Speaker 1:Yeah right.
Speaker 2:That's when you have a team that can actually truly be agile.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Adaptable, responsive, to change Right, and that's something that no recipe can ever guarantee.
Speaker 1:So if these recipes are potentially leading us astray, Right. What are the alternatives?
Speaker 2:Yeah, what are the alternatives?
Speaker 1:Well, I'm glad you asked, because there are some truly effective ways to build a better way, even within an agile framework. It all starts with, like this shift in mindset, you know.
Speaker 2:Oh interesting.
Speaker 1:Instead of prioritizing the process, put the product and the client front and center.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. It's about remembering what Agile is actually all about.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Delivering value incrementally.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Responding to change effectively.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Fostering that real collaboration.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's about being brave enough to break the rules of the recipe.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:When those rules are, you know, holding you back from making something.
Speaker 1:That's truly great. I love that. Being brave enough to break the rules, I like that.
Speaker 2:Sometimes you gotta throw the recipe out.
Speaker 1:Right, sometimes you just gotta go for it. Yeah, one source, a developer.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Who's worked in both like traditional tech companies and fast paced startups.
Speaker 2:Right Talks about the power of healthy conflict. Oh, interesting, ok Not not the you know destructive kind, but the kind that arises when people like genuinely care about the product.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And are willing to, like you know, challenge each other's ideas to make it better.
Speaker 1:See, I love this because this type of healthy conflict it's actually a really strong indicator of trust within a team. Really, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:It means that people they feel safe enough to be vulnerable to disagree and to know that their opinions are actually going to be valued.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and sometimes the best communication happens organically. Yes, not in some like pre-scheduled meeting. You know what I mean, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Don't be afraid to have those impromptu huddles.
Speaker 1:Those water cooler brainstorming sessions, those are the best. Those quick chats right, right here. Where you just like hash out an idea with a colleague.
Speaker 2:That's often where the real magic happens.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's often where the real magic happens.
Speaker 2:It's organic communication.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's so valuable for, just like you know, building that shared understanding.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:That alignment within the team Right. It's about creating that culture where people they feel comfortable reaching out to each other asking for help.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Sharing their knowledge freely, you know.
Speaker 1:So after all, that are story points officially dead.
Speaker 2:I don't know. What do you think?
Speaker 1:Well, the answer. Like most things in life, it's complicated.
Speaker 2:Right, it's not a simple answer. Yeah, yeah it's complicated, but there are some really thought-provoking perspectives here. One of your sources dives into this whole. This hashtag no estimates movement.
Speaker 1:Hashtag no estimates.
Speaker 2:Imagine a world where we just stopped agonizing over story points. Oh, okay, what if we focused on delivering value in small, manageable chunks and we just trusted our teams to get the work done, without getting bogged down on all the estimations and everything?
Speaker 1:It does feel kind of radical right.
Speaker 2:It does, it does.
Speaker 1:But before we completely write it off, you brought up a really interesting point earlier. There are situations where story points can be useful.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly, for high functioning teams, teams that teams that have they've already built that that strong foundation of trust, right and shared understanding, story points. They can be a very helpful tool for you know, for forecasting and planning.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The key is making sure that they're they're not being used to like micromanage.
Speaker 1:Right, right.
Speaker 2:Or create, you know, unnecessary pressure.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, totally micromanage, right, right, or create you know unnecessary pressure, right, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:The real question is, are they? Are they actually adding value to your process, yeah, or are they just adding noise?
Speaker 1:I like that are they?
Speaker 2:are they helping you have those, those really crucial conversations? Yeah about about scope and complexity yeah, or are they, you know, just another box to tick on the checklist?
Speaker 1:It all comes back to being honest with ourselves, right? Like taking a step back and asking, like are these story points really helping us, or are they just another hoop to jump through?
Speaker 2:And there's no shame in admitting that what works for one team might not work for another.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Or that you know your needs have changed over time. I'll tell you what Remember, even the inventor of story points. What has kind of come around on the whole thing? Oh wow, to say you know what. These might actually be more trouble than they're worth.
Speaker 1:Which is, honestly, when you think about it, that's kind of amazing. It is, it is it speaks to this evolution of thinking within the Agile community. We're constantly iterating, experimenting, striving to find those better ways of working.
Speaker 2:That's what it's all about. Yeah, the beauty of Agile is that it's not dogma. Yeah, it's about embracing change and finding what works best for your team in your context.
Speaker 1:I love that. So what does this all mean? Like what's the one thing that someone listening to this right now can like take away and actually apply to their own work?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think a good first step is just having that honest conversation with your team, okay About whether story points are actually serving you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or maybe experimenting with a different approach, okay, about whether story points are actually serving you. Yeah or maybe experimenting with a different approach. Okay, we talked about that whole flexible sprint thing earlier. All right right, or even going full hashtag no estimates, just see what happens.
Speaker 1:Try it out. Try it out, I like it, I like it.
Speaker 2:Here's a final thought to leave you with. Okay, what if, instead of measuring our output, how many story points did we complete? How many lines of code did we write? What if we focused on measuring the outcomes?
Speaker 1:The outcomes okay.
Speaker 2:What impact are we having on our users?
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Are we solving the right problems? Are we delivering value? Oh, those are big questions, those solving the right problems.
Speaker 1:Yeah, are we delivering value? Oh, those are big questions.
Speaker 2:Those are the questions that really matter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they do. And on that note, we'll leave you to ponder those big questions.
Speaker 2:Yes, ponder away.
Speaker 1:Until next time, happy coding.
Speaker 2:Happy coding.
Speaker 1:And may your sprints be ever productive.
Speaker 2:Ever productive.
